Guest Speaker Series: The Key to Selling Your Online Program With Steve Werner

Tara Bryan: 00:00:05

Hey, everybody is Tara Bryan and you are listening to the course building secrets podcast. Whether you're a coach or a CEO, the success of your team and clients is based on your ability to deliver a consistent experience and guide them on the fastest path to results. This podcast will give you practical real life tips that you can use today to build your online experiences that get results and create raving fans. Why? So you can monetize your expertise and serve more people without adding more time or team to your business? If you're looking to uncover your million dollar framework, package it and use it to scale you're in the right place. Let's dive in.

Tara Bryan: 00:00:50

Hey, everybody, it's Tara, Brian, and you are listening to course building Secrets. Today I have a special guest, Steve Werner from monetize your tribe. And I am so excited to have a conversation with Steve today about some course building secret tips. So welcome to the podcast. Steve, give us a little bit of your background. And what brings you to this podcast today.

Steve Werner: 00:01:14

Sure, thanks for having me, Tara. Um, I help people build live events and do public speaking engagements. I help them build stage presentations that sell without being super salesy. And I help people generally get leads through organic traffic that feels good. Instead of just posting, hey, buy my stuff, buy my stuff, buy my stuff, I teach people how to tell stories, because I think everything comes back to the story arc, the journey that you take your customers on, it's what brings them to you. It's what gets them to interact with you, whether you are selling from stage, whether you're building a live event, or whether you are selling on a webinar, or a podcast or a presentation training that you're doing. All of it comes back to not what you teach, but how you get people engaged with you.

Tara Bryan: 00:02:04

Yeah, for sure. That's awesome. And I love that because so often, especially with courses, people just like, want to teach their stuff, right? They want to teach all the information. And it's really about how do you engage them? How do you tell them stories so they can connect with what you're teaching and actually get results. So that's amazing. And I have to say that. So Steve and I met like three years ago, three years, three years.

Steve Werner: 00:02:30

Three, it's crazy, maybe four, it might be four, maybe four,

Tara Bryan: 00:02:33

it's been a while. So, um, so Steve and I met through a coaching program that we were both a part of. And and, and so we immediately connected and, and, and had a great time on cruises, and masterminds and live events and everything else. So I love Steve, the story of how you got into doing what you're doing today. Can you share a little bit of that story with us? Sure. Yeah.

Steve Werner: 00:03:04

Um, I mean, I can, I won't take you through the super long version. I so I used to run fine dining restaurants. I worked in Vail, Colorado. I love what I did, but I had hit a ceiling I was not going to make over like low six figures. Um, and I, I owned a business in college, which I had sold and I really, like still had this like inner desire to do it. So I was like, I'm gonna do it. And I love live events. I love public speaking. I liked connecting with people live events. So I left Vail, Colorado, I moved to Las Vegas. With about $27,000 in my pocket. I decided to hold a live event I went down I signed on the dotted line the day after I moved to Las Vegas for the largest space that Treasure Island offered for 1400 people. And then I started I put together a live event, which sounds great, right? Except with four weeks ago, I had sold two tickets. And I had spent all of my money. Um, I had done every form of marketing that they tried to sell you. Every everything from I had a professional website built. I had Facebook ads I had this was before Instagram, or maybe in the beginning days, I didn't run a Instagram but we ran banner ads. I was on podcast, I was on radio. I was on national radio, I was in print, I was in journals. I was everywhere. And nobody bought anything because I realized this is like the secret, right? It doesn't matter what you sell. It really doesn't nobody cares. What they care about, is how like, can you market it? What's in it for me? And 90% 95% of marketing is all all about what you're selling, what letters are behind your name, all of that crap that nobody cares about. So you don't sell anything. I didn't sell anything. I woke up So I went down, I begged them not to hold me. I like the conversation was really pretty simple. I walked in, they had told me they were like, Are you sure you're gonna be able to do this? When they they sold it to me? And I said, yeah, yeah, like I've run. I so the thing was, I had ran tons of huge events at prevail. 5000 6000 person events. So I knew how to run the event really, really well. I knew how to speak really well, I, I'd like those are the things that I thought I thought that was the event. Um, so I went in with four weeks ago, and they knew, like no one, I was on the room on a on the hook for 150 person room block. Which means that they expected me to rent 150 hotel rooms from them, as well as the meeting space as well as food and beverage. And they knew that wasn't happening because nobody had reserved any rooms. Um, even the two people that I had sold lived in Las Vegas. Um, so yeah, I went in, and I, the conversation was real short. It was, hey, if you guys hold me to this minimum, it sucks. But I'm just gonna file bankruptcy because I don't have any money. And don't have anyone coming to the event. I'm really sorry. I don't know what to do. Please forgive me. Like, I want to make this. I want to do whatever I can to make this right. That's fine here. Um, and they they let me out of my they said, Well, we think we have somebody else who is interested in that weekend. Even though it's four weeks out, we'll just keep your deposit which was five grand. And we'll let it go. So from there, I lived I moved into a friend's utility room, which was like an eight by eight closet off their laundry room. They believed in me though, they were sitting next to me at the bar, the at the frog bar and Treasure Island the day that this all went down. And she she looked at me and she was like, Well, what do you want to do? Because I had had I've been contacted by headhunters to go back to restaurants I had, I could go I mean, once you've once you've dominated the restaurant industry, and done really well in it, you can pretty much you can go get a job. Although now with COVID. You can't. A little bit different. But they, yeah, they were like, What do you want to do? And I said, Well, I believe I believe in what I'm doing. I just need to figure out how to sell it. And maybe instead of having this gargantuan, you know, be hag goal, maybe I just need to like figure out how to do like 50 people, something. So the next event, um, the short version, I'm trying to keep this really short, sorry. It's okay.

Steve Werner: 00:07:45

They're really short, the short version, I moved into their utility room, I had a little bit under five grand left on a credit card. I think I had maybe $1,200 in cash. So I started going to library and I got all the books on marketing, like all of the books. I like to read. I was raised by two teachers. So I read a lot. I got all the books on marketing. I was like marketing can't be that hard. I'm sure I can figure this out. Most of the books say the same thing, which is tell people what's in it for them. Like that's if you boiled it down to one thing, that's it. But in that group of stuff, I found a course by Dan Kennedy, who if you don't know who Dan Kennedy is, and you're listening to this, you should google him. He is like the godfather of modern day marketing. He came out in the late 70s, early 80s. He was responsible for a lot of direct mail pieces. Everyone Great. Literally everybody great has come from him. Russell Brunson, Frank Kern, Joe, Polish, Eben Pagan, you name them. They came from his stuff. So I found this course that somebody it's he still sells the course for two or three grand. It's called butts and seats. And somebody had donated it. It was on cassette tape. Um, do

Tara Bryan: 00:09:07

you have to find a cassette tape somewhere?

Steve Werner: 00:09:09

Well, my car at the time had a cassette player. And I think I listened to it. A couple of days later, I listened to it driving somewhere because I remember I got I get like I just grabbed like I went to the library and grabbed a bunch of crap right? I was like this and this and this and I was like, oh butts in seats. That sounds like something I need because I'm holding a live event through it and I don't even think it knew it had tapes in it. But it was in like that like cheesy plastic like hard clamshell case. I'm sure if I mean if you guys are over the age of 35 You probably remember those. So but I remember like get I remember it was in in this like room right? And I was like it had a workbook, which I had like flip through but a workbook has a bunch of fill in the blank stuff. It had some writing, but then I was like, I don't know like it's tapes. I don't have a tape player. But I listened to to one of the tapes, driving, I don't remember where where we're going. But I listened to it and it was so good. We got there and I waited for the tape to finish, like sat in the car and listen to it. And then I listened to it driving back. And I remember like, I was like, I want, like, this is really like, if you listen to Dan find something is on YouTube. Um, he doesn't do social media. He doesn't own a cell phone. He doesn't get on the internet. He's an old think of like Bad Grandpa meets marketing genius. That's what you get. Because He's really He's a crusty old man. He's bitter, like, not better. He's just grumpy. But so but his stuff was great. So I stopped at a savers and bought a, like a old junky stereo with a tape player. So that I could listen to this stuff, because I was like, am I gonna buy a Walkman? Do they even make Walkmans.

Tara Bryan: 00:10:54

And I was like, don't they probably do now, because it's vintage?

Steve Werner: 00:10:57

Yeah, they're probably it's like $900 or something. 997 you get walk around and style. Um, so I listened to that course, the short story, I listened to the course. And through that course, I literally followed what it said, I filled out the workbook. This is the thing. Most people get courses. They don't go through them. They don't do the work they are they listened to all of it. But then write anything down. I actually did the workbook because I was like, nobody has used this workbook. It's from 1987 or something. Like it was old. It was like

Tara Bryan: 00:11:30

yellow, parchment paper.

Steve Werner: 00:11:33

But I went through and I filled out the stuff. And I actually did the work that the Court said, I mean, it was six tapes, six, or maybe eight tapes. I think it was six tapes I don't really remember. Wasn't that long. Like I listened to all the tapes in a day or two. After buying that crappy stereo. I filled out the workbook. I listened to the tapes a couple more times, I did what it said, I sold out in an event for 100 people, I made about eight grand, it took me less than three months. And if you're listening to this and you want butts and seats, you can go find it. You can do the same thing that I did on what it did not tell me was after that. So I held I held that event, I held another event. I thought I was doing great. I paid the money to go see Dan Kennedy at a seminar at a three day event in Orlando. I got there. I paid extra money to sit at Dan's table. You could you could have lunch with Dan, it was like 10 people and you get to ask him one question. I thought I was like the king of the world at this point. Right? I sat down I was like, I'm gonna tell my story. I was like, you know, making like 10 grand. And he just like, looked at me. And he told me that I was an idiot. Like, literally like he's shaking his head and like Bad Grandpa picture like your your grumpy grandpa. And he was like, you're an idiot. I was like, Well, why? And he was like, you need to sell something. I was like, these are dentists. Like, I'm not a dentist, what am I going to sell them? And he said, Well, I have a program over there. It's called magnetic marketing. It's his core program. He's like, I'll give you 50% For everyone that you sell. So well, I don't know what's in it. He said, Well, you have to buy it. So I bought it $2,000. Later, I'm sitting there with magnetic marketing. And he was like, just practice, here's like, just practice the same pitch that I do. Just do it yourself. And I'll give you 50%. So I sold those for a couple of events. I think I sold it for two events, because then I paid more money to join Dan's program, which the thing that I got out of that was build your own course build your own stuff, build what you want to sell. So I started off by selling marketing consulting that I sold Facebook ads than I learned I hated Facebook ads. So I'm back to selling consulting. And then on our cruise, actually, you weren't at the conversation. But we were we were all sitting around at like 2pm one night to 2am

Tara Bryan: 00:13:54

PM, I would have been there 2am Not

Steve Werner: 00:13:58

2am We're sitting around drinking and I was like, I can't do any more Facebook ads. I don't know what I'm gonna do. And somebody was like, Well, I bet people buy live events, because people would love to learn how to do what you do. If you try to hold on live event, it's hard. It is a challenge to fill the room for sure. Nobody tells you that baseline price you're gonna spend five to $600 per person. For an event over 10 people if you 10 or under you can do pretty cheap, because you'll have enough warm audience you can fill it but beyond that, if you're putting cold people in the seats, five 600 bucks at minimum per person. Um, and nobody tells you that. So yeah, I left that night. We found all of my Facebook people a home at another Facebook ads agency. And then I started teaching people how to do live events. That was two years ago. It went great until COVID hit and now I like I've been helping people a little bit online. If they're doing webinars or If they are selling through a virtual event, we do coaching on how to present how to tell great stories, how to move people along and teach lessons while telling them stories, keep them engaged, which is really, if you ever been a room, you can make them jump, you can make them sit, you can make them give each other high fives, you can do things to get engagement, right? virtual events, it has proven to be harder, but it's still possible. And if you look at the virtual events that are doing really well, it's because they have massive engagement, and they figured out that piece, so

Tara Bryan: 00:15:32

yeah, super cool. Oh, there's so many things. So many things about this story that I have follow up for. The first thing is

Steve Werner: 00:15:42

that, what, sorry, all the things, there's all

Tara Bryan: 00:15:46

they're all the things, there's so many things. So the first one is, is the lesson that you had around, you know, you had an expertise, and you're super good at the thing that you're doing. But there was a huge difference between doing the thing and selling the thing. And I think that's such a good lesson. And so I appreciate you going through that part of the story. Because that's what we what we deal with so many times as experts is like, you're so good at your thing that you think, well, it's just like people are paying me for that thing. And they are, but in order to attract them to you to actually be able to teach them the thing, you have to learn from their perspective what they need in order to get to that place. Right. So like you were saying the stories and the the connection of like, what what is going on with your learner or your, your prospect that will tip them over that they need to have this thing. And so that was such a great lesson, an expensive lesson, unfortunately, for you, but such a great lesson. And I think that that's so typical, when we go from, you know, being the expert at something to trying to sell our expertise, I was working with a gentleman who spent a year building out his course. And it was amazing. And it had all sorts of different animations and different things in it. And it was like his crowning achievement, right. But he put it out there and nobody bought it. And so he ended up you know, like, Well, yeah, I mean, it's here. And then he had to go back to his job. And because he couldn't sell his thing, and, and that story is, is like, it's that pain of feeling. That moment when you had to tell them like I wasn't able to fill these seats. And, and I love that and I love the tenacity that you had to go out and figure out how, how to do that. And, and find the right resources and mentors who could help you do that. And, and, and Dan Kennedy is, is well known for that. And I love it there were cassette tapes, because that's just like, back in the day.

Steve Werner: 00:17:59

I mean, I'm sure that like, I wish that I like I've thought about that that moment a lot. Because like what would have happened if I would not have grabbed those tapes, right. Like, I don't think that I would have held another event because I wasn't at that point. I was I knew I wanted to hold another event, but I literally was like, I was reading all these marketing books. And they none of them speak about live events. They all speak about sales or like USP or, like all the marketing stuff, right, like marketing, messaging copywriting, but I'm like, it's a live event like there. And I was like spinning, I think it was like probably three or four or five weeks after. Because I was going through, I was skimming like a book a day, that was my goal. It was when Tai Lopez was all the rage with I read a book de blah, blah, blah, I'm here in my garage. And I was like, Well, I can skim a book a day. Right? And I like I was learning stuff, but it wasn't. It wasn't anything. So I've we're down a rabbit hole, but like, what would have happened if I would not have picked up those cassettes? Or what would have happened if I wouldn't have been like, Oh, I'll listen to it in my car, maybe there's something good on here.

Tara Bryan: 00:19:14

It just would have taken you longer, right? I know you you're tenacious, you would have kept going and finding the answer. But it would have probably taken you longer because you know, to not have the right mentor to help you know, kind of give you the fastest path to how to get somewhere right give you those steps like you follow these steps you took action and that's what allowed you to get to that next level. You know, you would have found ultimately a different mentor probably in that in that scenario. So so the the next thing that I wanted to talk about was sort of this this transition that you had from going and doing the thing all the time to how do I package this differently, so I'm not just doing one on one services. or, you know that that kind of churn of having the clients, because I think that's the other thing that, you know, the online course builders that I'm working with are, you know, they sort of found themselves in that trap of doing one on one services, one on one coaching, one on one consulting, and they've kind of reached that ceiling of, you know, I'm tired and burnt out, I'm just constantly repeating myself, I call it 54 states, right? Like, you're, you're literally like doing the same thing over and over and like you love working with the people. But you know that there's got to be a better way to do it. And that pivot that you took to think about, like, how do you package your thing? How do you sell that thing? On the back end of that engagement? So you get, you get that momentum? You get that that? That next quantum leap up? Talk to me a little bit more about that?

Steve Werner: 00:20:53

Sure. So actually, this I don't know if you've, you've heard this or not, but the what happened again, on a second cruise that we did this year,

Tara Bryan: 00:21:04

so much happens on those cruises, this cruises

Steve Werner: 00:21:06

are awesome. I'm sad. We're not doing one this year. So on that cruise on the cruise this year, so, what, nine months ago now, 10 months ago, we're in October, 10 months ago, um, I was having dinner with somebody and they said, like, I knew who they were, I think we had talked once or twice in passing. They said, I know what you do. But I've never gotten on a call with you. Because I didn't know if you were any good at what you did. So what do you mean? They said, Well, we've we've seen you talk about holding live events, we've seen you talk about speaking. But you don't have a course if you would have had a course we would have bought it. We don't do anything with anyone. He was like we we buy the course. And he's like we skim through it. And we see to know because it tells us if you know how to actually talk about what you're doing. It lets us know whether or not you are anything because I and like I was really taken aback because I, I you and I have talked but I've never had I never built a course because I was always like, nobody doesn't anyway, I just saw high ticket. I don't need that. Um, so that started playing in the back of my head a little bit. Um, we ended up having a couple more conversations. They no longer needed the service that I offered, they had figured out how to do it a different way. But we had a few more conversations around that. But I kept replaying that, and then COVID happens. All right. And so I mean, March of this year, I had to refund, like, almost six figures, to people who had who were my clients who I was supposed to help build a live event who were no longer having live events. Um, when that happens, like that's a that that was a hard day, right? Like, looking at my bank account go from being really healthy to really not healthy. Um, that starts to burn down a little bit. And I started to look at, like, Okay, what am I going to do? So I was like, well, this course thing is still playing and what. So the thing that I want you to think about the best teacher that you ever had in high school, or college. And if you remember why he was a great teacher, or she was a great teacher, it was because they knew how to package the information in a way that was engaging and was told through stories. So this is why I teach people at live events. At your live event, you want to meet people down here, if you're watching this on video, we're down at the bottom left of the screen. You meet people where their pain is, and you take them on a journey with you. That's a nice clean story arc. And you take them from where they are in pain, to getting out of the pain a little bit to getting out of the pain more to getting some forward momentum to building the thing that they need. And you're helping them see their journey and see themselves as part of it. And that's, that is all done through story. It's 80% story and 20% teaching. But as the expert, your guy who built that course, who wasted a year of his life, didn't waste a year spent a year of his life. That guy probably taught a whole lot like he fired up the video camera and he was like, let's, here's framework, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, teach, teach, teach, teach, teach. It's the same mistake that I made with my first live event. I'm going to have this live event and you're going to like we're going to do this and this. I had 18 speakers lined up, right. Like, I wish I still had a copy of that web page. Um, but it was like there was no outcome. And it was all about what I wanted to talk about. And that's bad teachers if you think to high school, college bad teachers are the teachers who stand up in lecturing and care less whether or not you're listening. Well, if you want to know, Yo, listen, we all we all say, we want to be healthy, and we're gonna order salads and we all eat cheeseburgers because what feels good, right? And then Tara and I go for a run. Yes. But like, the reason I bring the cheeseburger salad analogy up is we all say we want XYZ, right? But our brain tricks us. Oh, yeah, if I want to learn, I'll listen. Yeah, when was the last time you sat down and listened to a solid one hour lecture where somebody just taught, right, you fall asleep, your eyes go into the back of your head, it's hard to pay attention, your phone's grabbing you, Facebook's grabbing you, right? You have to engage people. And the way you do that is through story with little tidbits of information. So I thought about this. And I was like, Well, that's what I teach people to do on stage. And that's what I teach people, like we build out the entire live event. But then we also build out all the marketing for the event, which is a nine month lead up to the event, you start way, way out here with a lead magnet that gets people involved. And then you nurture them, nurture them build a know like trust factor, then you sell them the event.

Steve Werner: 00:26:09

So I was thinking about all this. And I was like, Well, that's what I can teach people to do with their virtual event with their webinar with anything they're doing. So I I know enough that you don't build the course. First, you build the course with people. So I posted a couple times on Facebook, I'm emailed my list. And I said, this is what I'm doing. This is what it's going to cost. So I ran it as a challenge. It was 97 bucks. And I said anyone who wants in can come in, um, this is what it costs. This is what you'll get out of it. This is the money back guarantee. It's being run as a challenge. And we ended up with, I think, so I ran, I ended up running the challenge several different times, I ran it six different times. Because I wanted to really flesh out the sessions. And I wanted to get feedback because everybody had questions. So we did, we did a couple of them free, a couple of them paid at $97, varying lengths. I played with everything that I could there. And then I just took the recordings. And that became the course I took the best version of each recording. And like sometimes, so the great thing about doing it as a challenge like this was I was able to so the first challenge was 21 days, it was $97. And like, I tried to cover way too much. And the feedback at the end of it was this was great. I can't implement more than like a quarter of this. It's just too much. So then the next challenge was seven days, we're just going to build this. And the feedback was it's not quite enough, it doesn't quite fulfill. Right. So by the end of it, I had a very well packaged course. So the course now has 18 modules in it. It's all there. It's been pressure tested there q&a sessions, where people ask questions, I just put the Q and A's in as bonuses. Right. Um, and that, that has worked very well. Um, the challenge, I mean, the biggest thing that I'm worried about is people aren't going to complete the course right. Two things were said to me one was on the cruise by the person who said, you know, we're not going to complete the course we're going to go through and we're looking at to see if it's worth money to see if you your services are worth money. The other thing that I personally did, which I don't, I don't know what your thoughts are on this are. But I, I just sell, I sell the course. And it comes with a one on one session, an onboarding session. Because I want to find out if I can either upsell the people to work with me one on one or in a small group, or where I can help them. I feel like if I've done that, and they still don't move forward, and they don't complete the course. At that point. It's not my, my thing, like something comes up. One girl that bought the course ended up getting a raise and a promotion. And she was like, the course is great. I'm just halfway through it. I'm gonna have to come back to it. I have to focus on my job right now. Okay, cool. That has nothing to do with me. Um, some people get distracted, they want to do something else. I had one guy that he went through it and he was like, all of this stuff is great. I just I can't bring myself to do it. But it has nothing to do with you. Okay, cool.

Tara Bryan: 00:29:29

Um, yeah, I mean, you're always gonna have those people. And I think that, you know, from from my perspective, it's just like, what you're talking about with engagement to live events or, or live virtual events is how do you get people engaged? How do you get them actively involved and actively participating? Because that's the piece that's going to make the difference between do they go through it or do they not go through it? The biggest key and then I'll give you around this is that yes, there's definitely definitely lots of different reasons why people decide to take the course right? Sometimes, sometimes people just buy the course because it's like, oh, I bought the course. Now my problem is solved. Because I bought this course, they haven't even opened the course. But their problem is solved because they actually took action. Like, that's interesting. Interesting thing.

Steve Werner: 00:30:21

It's the same way people buy books.

Tara Bryan: 00:30:23

I don't need to read it. I just have to have it on my bookcase. Oh, yeah, you're

Steve Werner: 00:30:27

thinking, I have the problem, right? I have the problem around sales and marketing. I don't know how to do marketing. So I'm gonna go buy the top five books on Amazon about marketing? Are you going to read them? Maybe they're sitting on your shelf. You feel like mentally you feel like you've scratched that itch. This is something I've talked to a lot of people about, because it's like, that's where people it's, it's the letter, the salad versus the cheeseburger thing, right? How the people that move forward in life, the people that are successful, are the ones to sit down and read the books and not just read but then implement. Yep, yep. But it's like, there's the 8015 5%. If you've never heard of this before, it's the PLATO principle, I think is what it's called. But it's 80% of people fall over here. 20% are here out of that 20%, there's a 15 and a five. So it's at 15. Five, if you look at that for reading 80% of people never read the book. 15% read the book, but never implement 5% Read and implement. It's the same with courses, people are buying them because well, I really need to know I want to hold a webinar. Right? Did you know that click funnels? Number one selling product is the perfect webinar $39 $39. So it's it's not a high price ticket. It's a mid mid level, most of the people 80% never even open it. Never open 15% Open it go through it. But never do a webinar 5% Do the webinar. Like that's the breakdown for it when I learned that I was like,

Tara Bryan: 00:32:09

yeah, and but but here's the here's the travesty, right is that there are ways for you to create your online course that actually help that number get higher, right? Because Because ultimately, at the end of the day, it's about helping your students get results. If you get them results, they ascend up your value letter, they stay with you. And they actually then get the results that you want them to get right. And so there are definitely ways to increase engagement. I think one of the best things about your story, Steve, about starting your course was that you did it as a beta, that's what we call it when when you're doing it live, is that you're actually doing it with with real people, because then you're getting that feedback. So you can adjust, right, you can go from, well, this one was good, I got the feedback. Now I'm gonna do it again and adjust it and you keep going until you're like, yep, this, this feels good, then that's the one that you package and put out there. And then you have now a course that's viable with the bonuses with the q&a. And then the next step that I would just recommend would be like, where along that path of what you're teaching are like the key places where somebody would fall off, right, like where's like an obstacle? Or where would they get overwhelmed? Or where would they typically like Stop, stop going through the course. And then at that point, I would be really intentional about engaging them back in, right? Like, could you get them on the phone? Then? Could you you know, send them an email? Could you send them a little, a little recognition gift or something like that, right? Because that's the next level, right? The first level is test your beta, make sure that's resonating, make sure you're getting all the bugs out, and people are really getting the results that you want them to get from, you know, the questions and the answers, then package it, then look at it and be like, okay, you know what, like, people are really strong until this module, and then like, a bunch of drop off. And then most of the time they drop off because now you're asking them to actually do something that to your point earlier, that 5% Right, because because they go through this thing, and they're super excited about it. Yeah, I got the books, I'm already you know, like, got the course. I'm gonna go in there and it's gonna be awesome. And then then they actually have to do the work and they start it starts to go like this. They're like, Oh, this is hard. I have to actually do something. And then the people who make it here to actually get the results. The ones who have actually implemented are like, Yeah, that's right. But it's this right here. This dip that happens, where if you can get people past that dip, then there'll be with you forever. Right? Then they're your like, raving fans, they ascend up your value ladder and you get them going

Steve Werner: 00:34:58

100% Um, I mean, I've we've talked a lot about this. I mean, the biggest thing that the biggest thing that I've found you I mean, we've definitely talked about gamification, and having outreach and sending them stuff in the mail. And I think all of that builds a much, much better course. I'm, like, having ways that jump on a call with me. I mean, that's the biggest thing that I've found. If they jump on a call, if they're stuck, and they're willing to jump on a call, I can usually get them motivated enough to take action to move forward some. And that that also builds that No, like trust factor, and it will greatly lower. I mean, I don't knock on knock on wood, I don't have a refund problem. But that's I think that's part of it, too, because people can't look at you, if you've got on a call with them. And it doesn't have to be long call. My calls are 20 minutes. Hey, where are you stuck? What can I help you with? Does this make sense? What's your biggest question? They're not going to refund on you? Because they're like, well, he answered all my questions. I'm not the one doing it. I don't know if that's something that you find helpful, but that mailing them something, sending them a t shirt, sending them anything just to make them feel like they move forward.

Tara Bryan: 00:36:14

Even when you're recognizing their effort. Yes, it doesn't have to be a big deal. It doesn't have to be expensive. It doesn't have to be a postcard. Yeah, I

Steve Werner: 00:36:22

mean, it's hard a magnet. But people love that stuff. I mean, I I give out wristbands. They cost you 10 cents apiece for a silicone wristband. People love that stuff. It makes them because people, people feel like they did something. Like most people, especially today, don't feel like they're doing anything. They feel like they're stuck at home. Like, I haven't gone to the store, I haven't gone out to eat, I haven't done anything I'm not my life is losing meaning, oh, my goodness, I did something and they recognized it. And they sent me something. Like, that's what I think about your best teacher again, I bet your favorite teacher from high school, college, wherever I bet that they recognized you for something I bet they said, like, hey, like everybody wants that feeling, right? Everybody wants a feeling of like, they know just that I was special for some reason. If you can make your people feel special, they will continue to buy from you. Even if you're not getting the result for them, because they feel special. Like that's, I don't know if that's

Tara Bryan: 00:37:25

no 100%. And here's the beauty of it from a course perspective. Like you guys can automate all of that. Right? So somebody feels special

Steve Werner: 00:37:35

is whispering.

Tara Bryan: 00:37:37

Don't tell don't tell anyone's a secret. It's definitely a secret, right. But you can automate all of that, where you are putting in the course, in different places where you want to recognize them, and then you like set it up. And then like you're off doing your thing, and somebody is getting recognized automatically, because you've already set that up. All it takes is a little thinking ahead of time to be like, where along my path where along the journey. Are there different milestones that I want to make sure that I recognize out of my students, and so it could be a phone call. Or it could be a wristband, or it could be something super simple, that is already pre loaded and ready to go when they when they purchase. And, and that's the beauty of it, it is that automation piece that you can anticipate that to improve, improve the retention of people that you have significantly. So that's that's one of the game. And it's in it's the same as live events, right? Like as you're finding that you've pivoted from live events to now looking at, okay, how do I do virtual live events and help people really maximize their ability to connect with their people with virtual live events? You know, you've had to pivot you've had to change, but it is to your point earlier looking at how do you maximize that engagement? What does that look like in this world? And then the next level is, what does that look like in an online world, right with your online course. It's all the same conversation. It's just the way that you're showing up with people. That's a little bit different. Because it's all about story. It's all about engagement, which which I love that you said that at the beginning.

Steve Werner: 00:39:20

I mean, that's the biggest thing throughout any of this is people don't learn if they're not engaged. So how do you get people engaged? It's not but it's not about you like this. The takeaway here is get people engaged. Whatever you're doing, it's about what's in it for them. Not about you not about what you want to talk about, not about how you want to teach it. Like the whole thing requires a pivot and not being egocentric. Your guy who, who spent a year of his life building something. It sucks, but I mean, if we had to predict it.

Tara Bryan: 00:39:55

Oh, yeah, I mean, when he came to me, I was like, Yeah, this is why right like we've got to die. ln what who this is for? And the focus that you had on this wasn't on them? It was on you, and how are you going to sell it? So yeah, I mean, and and do a beta don't build the whole darn

Steve Werner: 00:40:13

always do beta do that? Yeah. So that's how, if you can't sell the beta, that should tell you something. Like, if you can't sell five people into it, then you're you're wasting your time, energy, money, find a different product, find something else out there. I mean, that's, I mean, the thing that I think that the biggest takeaway for me about the whole course experience starting on that cruise, like I've gone back to that conversation a lot in my mind. The, I always saw the course, the course, a course, as I think there are a lot of people out there, man, maybe this is just me that think like, I'm going to create a course I'm gonna make the funnel. And then I don't have to do any more work courses, the starting point, right? It's the point where I would challenge anyone out there make a $39 or $49 course, it doesn't have to be crazy 15 module get a little bit outcome for somebody, because that's where people start to know like, and trust you. And it's the beginning of the conversation. For me the courses that I've sold, then I get on a call with people, and then that moves them towards a consulting contract, which is really what I want to do. I like doing one on one, but I'm expensive. It's hard, like when there's somebody who hasn't bought anything, and I'm trying to sell them a $25,000 offer. That's a challenge. But once they've spent three grand with me, they've had a few sessions, and they've seen how I work. That offer is a lot easier. Right. And I think that's that is kind of my mental shift. I mean, I still, I still don't push the course nearly as hard as I should. It's not, it's not my favorite thing to sell. But I think that it definitely holds a great space. And it does what it's supposed to do like that the expectation change was the biggest thing for me, I think,

Tara Bryan: 00:42:11

well, and that's super common, right? Especially because you are more in the high ticket space of in the consulting space is, is that like, first of all, you're sort of what I would call a problem solver. Mindset, right. And so there's the teacher, the problem solver and the technician. And the problem solver likes to work with people to get in to fix the problem. And so of course, your course is not going to be the thing that fills you up, because it's you've already done it, right. And you're putting people in it and they're solving their problem, but you're not involved in that. And so as a problem solver, you want to be up here and in their, their mess to help them you know, Excel, right? Because that's, that's your zone of genius. And so for you, that course becomes that, that warm up that nurture, right to your bigger offer, there are a lot of people out there who don't want to play in this space, right? They don't want to solve the problem, they would rather provide something for somebody and nurture them along that path of what they've created. And they're not problem solvers. Right? So the problem with problem solvers, if you had like, say your course, was your primary product, as a problem solver, you will make little problems in that course just to solve the problems. Like that's your how you will deal with that. Which is really fascinating if you think about it. And you probably could go back to a story about that. But so, so when you're creating your course it's really it's really just being comfortable with which were with where it is and and where it falls. So. So I love that. That's awesome. All right. So I want to wrap us up, we've covered so much ground. It's been amazing. Steve, I appreciate your time. I have one last question for you, which is if you have like one big resource, or or book or something I know you mentioned Dan Kennedy earlier, but something that would help people really be able to kind of make a shift or pivot in their business today. What would that be?

Steve Werner: 00:44:29

So there are five core stories that I feel like every business needs to tell that attract customers and bring them in and sell for you to get the engagement that we're talking about. Have them in a free PDF. You guys can get it. It is at stories that scale calm. It'll get you on my list. My list is not crazy. I email a couple times a week but they're short emails, and they always lead to a resource or a tool or something that will help you grow your business. I don't, I'm not a hard sale guy. I always provide value. And then if you like what I have, you can talk to me.

Tara Bryan: 00:45:10

Amazing. Yeah. And that link will be down below in the show notes, or in the description. So you have that and you can get a hold of Steve. Awesome. What were you gonna say?

Steve Werner: 00:45:23

I was gonna say stories@scale.com. That's, that's where you'll find it.

Tara Bryan: 00:45:27

Perfect. Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Steve. It was wonderful to talk to you as usual. Next time, we're going to dive in and talk about our camera equipment. In some future episode when we give tips for how to enhance your equipment, because Steve has like, created this amazing set and equipment that we all need to take notes from. So that will be the the next episode with Steve on of course building secrets podcast.